'I understood gender discrimination once I added “Mr.” to my resume and landed a job'
Wahrscheinlich lesen viele von euch Hacker News. F�r jene, die das nicht tun, ist hier ein interessanter Artikel �ber Frauen in der Berufswelt. http://qz.com/103453/i-understood-gender-discrimination-after-i-added-mr-to-...: My choice to brand the CV with a bold positioning of my name actually seemed to scream that I was a woman. I could easily imagine many of the people I had worked for discarding the document without even reading further. If they did read further, the next thing they saw (as politeness declared at the time) was a little personal information, and that declared I was married with kids. I had put this in because I knew many employers would see it as showing stability, but when I viewed it through the skewed view of middle-aged men who thought I was a woman, I could see it was just further damning my cause. I doubt if many of the managers I had known would have made it to the second page. I made one change that day. I put Mr. in front of my name on my CV. It looked a little too formal for my liking but I got an interview for the very next job I applied for. And the one after that. It all happened in a fortnight, and the second job was a substantial increase in responsibility over anything I had done before. In the end I beat out a very competitive short-list and enjoyed that job for the next few years, further enhancing my career. Where I had worked previously, there was a woman manager. She was the only one of about a dozen at my level, and there were none at the next level. She had worked her way up through the company over many years and was very good at her job. She was the example everyone used to show that it could be done, but that most women just didn�t want to. It�s embarrassing to think I once believed that. It�s even more incredible to think many people still do.
Echt schlimm so was. Ich bin ja nicht ganz von dieser Welt, aber ich kann mir echt �berhaupt keinen Grund vorstellen, warum man eine Bewerberin rein aufgrund ihres Geschlechts ablehnen sollte. Ich w�rde ja noch verstehen, wenn angesichts der Situation (verheiratet mit Kindern) beim Bewerbungsgespr�ch taktvoll eruiert wird, wie es mit der Kinderbetreuung ausschaut (eventuell mit Hinweis auf den Firmeneigenen Kindergarten), aber das sollte man wiederum auch bei M�nnern kl�ren. Selbstverst�ndlich kann man in den allermeisten F�llen sowieso davon ausgehen, da� die Bewerberin Arbeit und Familie vereinen kann, aber wir wollen ja nicht zuviel auf einmal von den Personalb�ros verlangen. Bl�h. Das erinnert mich wieder an eine Idee, die ich vor einer Weile hatte: An gro�e Firmen viele Bewerbungen mit jeweils gleich guter Qualifikation schicken und nur Geschlecht/Rasse/Religion �ndern. Das ganze k�nnte man dann statistisch auswerten und ver�ffentlichen. Wei� wer, ob das schon mal (in �sterreich) ernsthaft gemacht wurde? Am 13.07.2013 09:55, schrieb Boyang Xia:
Wahrscheinlich lesen viele von euch Hacker News. F�r jene, die das nicht tun, ist hier ein interessanter Artikel �ber Frauen in der Berufswelt. http://qz.com/103453/i-understood-gender-discrimination-after-i-added-mr-to-...:
My choice to brand the CV with a bold positioning of my name actually seemed to scream that I was a woman. I could easily imagine many of the people I had worked for discarding the document without even reading further. If they did read further, the next thing they saw (as politeness declared at the time) was a little personal information, and that declared I was married with kids. I had put this in because I knew many employers would see it as showing stability, but when I viewed it through the skewed view of middle-aged men who thought I was a woman, I could see it was just further damning my cause. I doubt if many of the managers I had known would have made it to the second page.
I made one change that day. I put Mr. in front of my name on my CV. It looked a little too formal for my liking but I got an interview for the very next job I applied for. And the one after that. It all happened in a fortnight, and the second job was a substantial increase in responsibility over anything I had done before. In the end I beat out a very competitive short-list and enjoyed that job for the next few years, further enhancing my career.
Where I had worked previously, there was a woman manager. She was the only one of about a dozen at my level, and there were none at the next level. She had worked her way up through the company over many years and was very good at her job. She was the example everyone used to show that it could be done, but that most women just didn�t want to. It�s embarrassing to think I once believed that. It�s even more incredible to think many people still do.
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Das ist eine naive Ansicht, dass das Geschlecht kein Grund für eine Ablehnung ist. Ich durfte seinerzeit meinen Berufswunsch nicht weiterverfolgen, da ich weiblich bin- ich wäre so gerne Pilotin geworden noch in den 70-ern (80ern?) durften Frauen nicht Chirurgin, Strassenbahnfahrerin, Lokführerin oder Busfahrerin werden. Das war gesetzlich! verboten aus abenteuerlichen Gründen. (Nachtarbeit war verboten - um die Frauen zu schützen- aber als Krankenschwester durften sie auch die Nacht durcharbeiten) Die swiss-air hat als erste Pilotinnen zugelassen- ich weiß jedenfalls nicht mehr wann das war. (1986 bei der Lufthansa) Ich erinnere mich noch, dass in der Schweiz Frauen nicht wählen durften (erst ab 1971 -und in Appenzell erst seit 1990) Und studieren durften Frauen früher auch nicht- die Zulassung ist aber schon eine Weile her Und ich bin noch keine 100 Jahre alt (nur 99 ;-)) Eine Studienkollegin durfte nicht ins Gymnasium, weil der Vater (Landarzt) meinte, 4 studierende Kinder könne er sich nicht leisten- und die 3 Söhne müssten unbedingt studieren - im Endeffekt hat nur ein Sohn Matura und sie hat als einzige studiert und es auch abgeschlossen- war aber mühsam für sie, das durchzusetzen. nur mal so zum Nachdenken lieben Gruß Regine Am 13.07.2013 um 12:24 schrieb Benjamin Schwarz <donarsson89@gmail.com>:
Echt schlimm so was.
Ich bin ja nicht ganz von dieser Welt, aber ich kann mir echt überhaupt keinen Grund vorstellen, warum man eine Bewerberin rein aufgrund ihres Geschlechts ablehnen sollte. Ich würde ja noch verstehen, wenn angesichts der Situation (verheiratet mit Kindern) beim Bewerbungsgespräch taktvoll eruiert wird, wie es mit der Kinderbetreuung ausschaut (eventuell mit Hinweis auf den Firmeneigenen Kindergarten), aber das sollte man wiederum auch bei Männern klären. Selbstverständlich kann man in den allermeisten Fällen sowieso davon ausgehen, daß die Bewerberin Arbeit und Familie vereinen kann, aber wir wollen ja nicht zuviel auf einmal von den Personalbüros verlangen.
Bläh. Das erinnert mich wieder an eine Idee, die ich vor einer Weile hatte: An große Firmen viele Bewerbungen mit jeweils gleich guter Qualifikation schicken und nur Geschlecht/Rasse/Religion ändern. Das ganze könnte man dann statistisch auswerten und veröffentlichen. Weiß wer, ob das schon mal (in Österreich) ernsthaft gemacht wurde?
Am 13.07.2013 09:55, schrieb Boyang Xia:
Wahrscheinlich lesen viele von euch Hacker News. Für jene, die das nicht tun, ist hier ein interessanter Artikel über Frauen in der Berufswelt. http://qz.com/103453/i-understood-gender-discrimination-after-i-added-mr-to-...: My choice to brand the CV with a bold positioning of my name actually seemed to scream that I was a woman. I could easily imagine many of the people I had worked for discarding the document without even reading further. If they did read further, the next thing they saw (as politeness declared at the time) was a little personal information, and that declared I was married with kids. I had put this in because I knew many employers would see it as showing stability, but when I viewed it through the skewed view of middle-aged men who thought I was a woman, I could see it was just further damning my cause. I doubt if many of the managers I had known would have made it to the second page.
I made one change that day. I put Mr. in front of my name on my CV. It looked a little too formal for my liking but I got an interview for the very next job I applied for. And the one after that. It all happened in a fortnight, and the second job was a substantial increase in responsibility over anything I had done before. In the end I beat out a very competitive short-list and enjoyed that job for the next few years, further enhancing my career.
Where I had worked previously, there was a woman manager. She was the only one of about a dozen at my level, and there were none at the next level. She had worked her way up through the company over many years and was very good at her job. She was the example everyone used to show that it could be done, but that most women just didn’t want to. It’s embarrassing to think I once believed that. It’s even more incredible to think many people still do.
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Am 13.07.2013 13:08, schrieb c'est moi:
Das ist eine naive Ansicht, dass das Geschlecht kein Grund f�r eine Ablehnung ist. Nein, es ist wirklich kein Grund. Nur sehen das nicht alle so wie ich. Ich durfte seinerzeit meinen Berufswunsch nicht weiterverfolgen, da ich weiblich bin- ich w�re so gerne Pilotin geworden
[...] Ich habe irgendwie das Gef�hl da� Du meinen Beitrag falsch verstanden hast. Ich habe nie behauptet, da� es keine derartige Diskriminierung gibt.
MfG
Am 13.07.2013 um 12:24 schrieb Benjamin Schwarz <donarsson89@gmail.com>:
Echt schlimm so was.
Ich bin ja nicht ganz von dieser Welt, aber ich kann mir echt überhaupt keinen Grund vorstellen, warum man eine Bewerberin rein aufgrund ihres Geschlechts ablehnen sollte. Ich würde ja noch verstehen, wenn angesichts der Situation (verheiratet mit Kindern) beim Bewerbungsgespräch taktvoll eruiert wird, wie es mit der Kinderbetreuung ausschaut (eventuell mit Hinweis auf den Firmeneigenen Kindergarten), aber das sollte man wiederum auch bei Männern klären. Selbstverständlich kann man in den allermeisten Fällen sowieso davon ausgehen, daß die Bewerberin Arbeit und Familie vereinen kann, aber wir wollen ja nicht zuviel auf einmal von den Personalbüros verlangen.
Bläh. Das erinnert mich wieder an eine Idee, die ich vor einer Weile hatte: An große Firmen viele Bewerbungen mit jeweils gleich guter Qualifikation schicken und nur Geschlecht/Rasse/Religion ändern. Das ganze könnte man dann statistisch auswerten und veröffentlichen. Weiß wer, ob das schon mal (in Österreich) ernsthaft gemacht wurde?
gab's schon, lustig aber was die dt. Antidiskriminierungsstelle vor einiger Zeit gemacht hat war interessanter: Anonymisierte Bewerbungen. http://www.antidiskriminierungsstelle.de/DE/Projekte_ADS/anonymisierte_bewer... Die (großen) Unternehmen machen's aber leider nicht weiter so von wegen "weder besser noch schlechter" und "wir sind eh schon diversifizierer der ersten stunde". Die Vorteile liegen nur bei den Bewerbern und daher sollte man vielleicht einen Versuch starten Bewerbungsschreiben gleich in einer anonymisierten Fassung zu schreiben. Diese Bewerbung (mit einer ID) in einen Umschlag, den in einen weiteren Umschlag mit Erklärung was das soll. Das Unternehmen hat keinen extra Aufwand mehr mit dem anonymisieren und der Bewerber hat seine/ihre Vorteile. Vielleicht will ja jemand von der arbeitssuchenden Minderheit das mal probieren. ciao, tom
Ein weiteres Hacker News link on gender discrimination: When male CEOs have daughters, relative pay for women at their firms goes up, narrowing the persistent gender wage gap. http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/ideasatwork/feature/7219454/Like+Daughter,+Like... On 13/07/13 09:55, Boyang Xia wrote:
Wahrscheinlich lesen viele von euch Hacker News. F�r jene, die das nicht tun, ist hier ein interessanter Artikel �ber Frauen in der Berufswelt. http://qz.com/103453/i-understood-gender-discrimination-after-i-added-mr-to-...:
My choice to brand the CV with a bold positioning of my name actually seemed to scream that I was a woman. I could easily imagine many of the people I had worked for discarding the document without even reading further. If they did read further, the next thing they saw (as politeness declared at the time) was a little personal information, and that declared I was married with kids. I had put this in because I knew many employers would see it as showing stability, but when I viewed it through the skewed view of middle-aged men who thought I was a woman, I could see it was just further damning my cause. I doubt if many of the managers I had known would have made it to the second page.
I made one change that day. I put Mr. in front of my name on my CV. It looked a little too formal for my liking but I got an interview for the very next job I applied for. And the one after that. It all happened in a fortnight, and the second job was a substantial increase in responsibility over anything I had done before. In the end I beat out a very competitive short-list and enjoyed that job for the next few years, further enhancing my career.
Where I had worked previously, there was a woman manager. She was the only one of about a dozen at my level, and there were none at the next level. She had worked her way up through the company over many years and was very good at her job. She was the example everyone used to show that it could be done, but that most women just didn�t want to. It�s embarrassing to think I once believed that. It�s even more incredible to think many people still do.
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hi einen weiteren indirekten und unfreiwilligen beitrag zum thema aus der schweiz: frauen sollen zu hause bleiben aber nicht meine t�chter, sagt frau dr. blocher... www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/In-vielen-Familien-geht-die-Frau-arbeiten-nur-weil-es-Mode-ist/story/27046452 ciao a.l.e
Ein weiteres Hacker News link on gender discrimination: When male CEOs have daughters, relative pay for women at their firms goes up, narrowing the persistent gender wage gap. http://www4.gsb.columbia.edu/ideasatwork/feature/7219454/Like+Daughter,+Like...
On 13/07/13 09:55, Boyang Xia wrote:
Wahrscheinlich lesen viele von euch Hacker News. F�r jene, die das nicht tun, ist hier ein interessanter Artikel �ber Frauen in der Berufswelt. http://qz.com/103453/i-understood-gender-discrimination-after-i-added-mr-to-...:
My choice to brand the CV with a bold positioning of my name actually seemed to scream that I was a woman. I could easily imagine many of the people I had worked for discarding the document without even reading further. If they did read further, the next thing they saw (as politeness declared at the time) was a little personal information, and that declared I was married with kids. I had put this in because I knew many employers would see it as showing stability, but when I viewed it through the skewed view of middle-aged men who thought I was a woman, I could see it was just further damning my cause. I doubt if many of the managers I had known would have made it to the second page.
I made one change that day. I put Mr. in front of my name on my CV. It looked a little too formal for my liking but I got an interview for the very next job I applied for. And the one after that. It all happened in a fortnight, and the second job was a substantial increase in responsibility over anything I had done before. In the end I beat out a very competitive short-list and enjoyed that job for the next few years, further enhancing my career.
Where I had worked previously, there was a woman manager. She was the only one of about a dozen at my level, and there were none at the next level. She had worked her way up through the company over many years and was very good at her job. She was the example everyone used to show that it could be done, but that most women just didn�t want to. It�s embarrassing to think I once believed that. It�s even more incredible to think many people still do.
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Bin ich dank der Metalab-Mailingliste gender-sensibilisiert, oder sind in der letzten Zeit viele Links auf Hacker News �ber Sexismus? Women as Job Perks, Again: <http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-perks-job-ad> Let me know which of the following would tempt you from you desk� 1. Keg of beer and beer tap fitted to your development desk? 2. The recruitment fee as your welcome gift? 3. 4 day week? 4. Building your own team of 4 from scratch 5. Shares and equity (so dull) 6. Commission from online sales. 7. An endless jar of Cadbury chocolate eclairs� 8. 4X *female* french, italian and spanish junior / front and backend developers 9. Your own Expresso /[sic]/ coffee machine with frothy milk maker� 10. 30 days paid holiday if taken in December and August. On 13/07/13 09:55, Boyang Xia wrote:
Wahrscheinlich lesen viele von euch Hacker News. F�r jene, die das nicht tun, ist hier ein interessanter Artikel �ber Frauen in der Berufswelt. http://qz.com/103453/i-understood-gender-discrimination-after-i-added-mr-to-...:
My choice to brand the CV with a bold positioning of my name actually seemed to scream that I was a woman. I could easily imagine many of the people I had worked for discarding the document without even reading further. If they did read further, the next thing they saw (as politeness declared at the time) was a little personal information, and that declared I was married with kids. I had put this in because I knew many employers would see it as showing stability, but when I viewed it through the skewed view of middle-aged men who thought I was a woman, I could see it was just further damning my cause. I doubt if many of the managers I had known would have made it to the second page.
I made one change that day. I put Mr. in front of my name on my CV. It looked a little too formal for my liking but I got an interview for the very next job I applied for. And the one after that. It all happened in a fortnight, and the second job was a substantial increase in responsibility over anything I had done before. In the end I beat out a very competitive short-list and enjoyed that job for the next few years, further enhancing my career.
Where I had worked previously, there was a woman manager. She was the only one of about a dozen at my level, and there were none at the next level. She had worked her way up through the company over many years and was very good at her job. She was the example everyone used to show that it could be done, but that most women just didn�t want to. It�s embarrassing to think I once believed that. It�s even more incredible to think many people still do.
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Beides. Einerseits gibts mittlerweile genug Informatikerinnen, die weder weiß noch Typ sind und die einfach die Schnauze voll haben, dass man dauernd auf ihnen WIE SELBSTVERSTÄNDLICH rumtrampelt und die es einem deswegen so lange bis zum Erbrechen unter die Nase reiben, bis es aufhört. Haaa-haaa! Andererseits: Sexismus erlebt grad einen Riesenaufschwung. Sowas wie die Astra-Leiberl-Werbung in D hätts vor 10 Jahren nicht geben können, das wäre den Werbefuzzeln selbst wahnsinnig peinlich gewesen. Wenn man mit so einem Vorschlag gekommen wäre, hätten sich die Auftraggebenden woanders umgeschaut, weil man offenbar nicht kreativ genug ist. Und derzeit gibts diesen Backlash. Warum? Vieleicht, weil viele/genug/laute Leute glauben, sie könnten ihr Gefühl, dass die Welt immer amoralischer und unsicherer wird, durch Vorschriften, welche Genitalträger was machen dürfen, beruhigen. Außerdem haben alle Angst und können nicht klar denken, desweiteren müssen sie jeden Tag bewusst und unbewusst, 46359865839456834 Entscheidungen treffen und das macht es schwer, NOCH mehr zu treffen...da hält man sich an das erste Angebot eines Wertesystems. Keine Kapazität zum Umlernen mehr oder man schließt sich vor der menschlichen Welt ein Ohne Internet. *in kaltem Schweiß ausbrech* Sexismus wird mit Ehrlichkeit verwechselt bzw. gerechtfertigt. Das finde ich auch seltsam, dass offenbar so viele Leute glauben, ein Arschloch zu sein ist Ehrlichkeit und es gäbe keine ehrlich netten Menschen. (Mein Motto wenn ich so wen treffe: zu allen Zeiten 400 m Abstand halten. Das ist ein Zombie. Die sind ansteckend und fressen einen auf.) Und ganz banal: Sich gegen die Werte der 90er wenden ist vermutlich rebellisch heutzutage. Und unreflektierte Nostalgie. Ich gebe gratis sarkastische Rants nach Bedarf, einfach Wunschepoche nennen. <bla> In unserer Kultur gibt's sowieso wenig "Moral" im Sinne einer organisch gewachsenen, verinnerlichten aber geteilten Ethik, was wir stattdessen haben, sind keine Handlungsrichtlinien, die das *Miteinander* und das Leben des Einzelnen erleichtern und Gemeinschaft schaffen sollen - lediglich Anweisungen an Unterlegene bzw. für unterlegen Gehaltene sind, wie sie möglichst angenehm für die Überlegenen aka Anweisungsgeber sind. Im Wirklichkeit haben wir ein Wertesystem des Durchschummels und scheiße zu anderen sein und sich nicht dabei erwischen lassen oder einfach brutal durchsetzen. Deswegen ist die ganze "wir reden darüber netter zueinander zu sein und das umzusetzen heißt, dass man seine Privilegien erkennen und was dagegen tun muss"-Sache hier so erfolglos und macht sehr viele Menschen wütend. So als würde man Schimpansen einen Haufen Bananen schenken und dann versuchen, die Hälfte wieder wegzunehmen. Würde man nicht überleben. Das Maß an Hass sieht man sehr deutlich an den USA derzeit. PoCs und Frauen sind da einfach unerwünscht, außer als Diener und Kindermaschinen, die die ganze Verantwortung kriegen.) </bla> Aber es sind nicht alle so und man findet die nettesten Menschen an unerwarteten Stellen. ...vielleicht sollte ich wirklich einen Antiretrorant machen xD On Tue, Jul 16, 2013 at 4:55 PM, Boyang Xia <b.xia@gmx.at> wrote:
Bin ich dank der Metalab-Mailingliste gender-sensibilisiert, oder sind in der letzten Zeit viele Links auf Hacker News über Sexismus? Women as Job Perks, Again:<http://www.newstatesman.com/economics/2013/07/women-offered-perks-job-ad>
Let me know which of the following would tempt you from you desk…
1. Keg of beer and beer tap fitted to your development desk? 2. The recruitment fee as your welcome gift? 3. 4 day week? 4. Building your own team of 4 from scratch 5. Shares and equity (so dull) 6. Commission from online sales. 7. An endless jar of Cadbury chocolate eclairs… 8. 4X *female* french, italian and spanish junior / front and backend developers 9. Your own Expresso *[sic]* coffee machine with frothy milk maker… 10. 30 days paid holiday if taken in December and August.
On 13/07/13 09:55, Boyang Xia wrote:
Wahrscheinlich lesen viele von euch Hacker News. Für jene, die das nicht tun, ist hier ein interessanter Artikel über Frauen in der Berufswelt. http://qz.com/103453/i-understood-gender-discrimination-after-i-added-mr-to-... :
My choice to brand the CV with a bold positioning of my name actually seemed to scream that I was a woman. I could easily imagine many of the people I had worked for discarding the document without even reading further. If they did read further, the next thing they saw (as politeness declared at the time) was a little personal information, and that declared I was married with kids. I had put this in because I knew many employers would see it as showing stability, but when I viewed it through the skewed view of middle-aged men who thought I was a woman, I could see it was just further damning my cause. I doubt if many of the managers I had known would have made it to the second page.
I made one change that day. I put Mr. in front of my name on my CV. It looked a little too formal for my liking but I got an interview for the very next job I applied for. And the one after that. It all happened in a fortnight, and the second job was a substantial increase in responsibility over anything I had done before. In the end I beat out a very competitive short-list and enjoyed that job for the next few years, further enhancing my career. Where I had worked previously, there was a woman manager. She was the only one of about a dozen at my level, and there were none at the next level. She had worked her way up through the company over many years and was very good at her job. She was the example everyone used to show that it could be done, but that most women just didn’t want to. It’s embarrassing to think I once believed that. It’s even more incredible to think many people still do.
_______________________________________________ Metalab mailing listMetalab@lists.metalab.athttps://lists.metalab.at/mailman/listinfo/metalab
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Hi!
Let me know which of the following would tempt you from you desk…
1. Keg of beer and beer tap fitted to your development desk?
Too oldschool.
2. The recruitment fee as your welcome gift?
Not enough
3. 4 day week?
What? So i'd have to continue to develop my open source software at home an additional day instead of beeing paid for?
4. Building your own team of 4 from scratch
No, thanks. This will end up in me having to do all the paper work. Urgh
5. Shares and equity (so dull)
Money isn't everything. And the shares will be worthless very soon anyway.
6. Commission from online sales.
Which is either not much and/or associates me with online spam.
7. An endless jar of Cadbury chocolate eclairs…
I have to loose weight, not gain it.
8. 4X female french, italian and spanish junior / front and backend developers
Don't care about looks, gender, race or mother tongue, as long as I can do MY job without interruption and distraction. But, whatever you decide, i prefer senior developers, since they usually can do their job without having to interrupt me every 10 seconds with questions google could have answered.
9. Your own Expresso [sic] coffee machine with frothy milk maker…
For some weird reasons, i like the taste of powdered instant coffee with plant fat based milk imitation much better.
10. 30 days paid holiday if taken in December and August.
The law says i have a right to 25 days per year anyway. But...
11. Getting paid to release about half the software i write at work as open source.
But that already IS in my job description. ;-) LG Rene Schickbauer
Teilnehmer (8)
-
"Nina Temporär" -
a.l.e -
Benjamin Schwarz -
Boyang Xia -
c'est moi -
Mynnia Ignea -
Rene.Schickbauer＠magnapowertrain.com -
Thomas R. Koll