Vienna IT field salaries (Was: Metalab General Discussion List <metalab@lists.metalab.at>)
Hi Matthew, Displaimer: I'm an immigrant myself, came from Moscow four years ago, so expect a bit of rant below. The salaries are low given what you pay for living in Vienna. Ignore what locals will tell you about the high standards and low costs of living. Good roads condition, drinkable tapwater, virtually non-existent crime and clean public transport are real, though are something you would expect with such a high taxes (and I guess you can't impress a New Zealander with efficient public transport as much as Muscovite). Low costs of living are completely made up by locals (sorry, folks!). Expect to pay above London prices in an average supermarket, be prepared to know that there's no options for living on tight budget here (considering both food and housing), and I guess you already had a chance to encounter the "low costs" of Viennese estate market when you have paid your "Kaution" and "Provision". I work for big telco here (Java developer with 9+ years of experience) and I'm a full-time employee. The salary range I have observed here is 3000-3800 EUR/month (before taxes), including PM and senior tech positions. I seriously doubt there are higher salaries for non-management IT positions here (everybody is welcome to prove me wrong). I was considering switching to contractor position (my company hires a lot of them), but after talking to taxman I discarded this idea: in my case this would give me ~5% pay increase. What you will get as a contractor is a really nice paycheck during the first year as the taxes during that time will be low for you. What you will lose: 14% of your yearly income as there will be no double salaries on June and December. Here's a tax calculator for your needs: https://www.bmf.gv.at/service/anwend/steuerberech/bruttonetto/_start.htm "lfd. Bezug mtl" is monthly salary, "13./14. Bezug" are two additional salaries (they are subject to lower taxes), "Jahresbezug" -- yearly income. Look at "Netto" row. And no matter what good offer you have now, bear in mind that it's almost impossible to find a nice new job without speaking German. Additionally, the job market here is tiny, so you also can't choose. Couple more remarks on the comments you have already received:
Tax is not only tax but also (obligatory) health/dental, accident and unemployment insurance
Not fully true about dental (fine print about amalgam fillings apply).
can go well over ~10000/month (excl tax) for good positions, such as "senior" or "teamleader" in a telco or bank
I don't believe that. Cheers, Sergey
Here is the official "Kollektivvertrag" for people working in the IT field. This is the agreement that the official representatives of all IT-workers worked out with the businesses in Austria. It states a couple of interesting things (all about the 13/14th salaries and what the minimum (!) salaries are). See: http://www2.wkstmk.at/wko.at/sic/ubit/KV_IT_2009_2010.pdf Look for a job that makes you happy - if you are good in what you do and the company figures that out (and makes you happy by providing all kinds of difficult things you can work on), you'll eventually earn a lot. Awesome. -- Consti
Am 02.08.2010 um 11:13 schrieb Sergey V. Mikhanov:
Displaimer: I'm an immigrant myself, came from Moscow four years ago, so expect a bit of rant below.
You are already assimilated: Complaining on a high level is so austrian ;-) It reminds me of a very similar discussion on the London's Ruby User Group list and James pretty much got it right: http://lists.lrug.org/htdig.cgi/chat-lrug.org/2008-March/002092.html
I guess you already had a chance to encounter the "low costs" of Viennese estate market when you have paid your "Kaution" and "Provision".
it ain't easy but you can find flat without a "Makler", I never paid any "Provision" in my livetime. My advise, and the way I'm living, go for a four-day-week or even tree days, be happy with little less money (2000-2400 should still be doable for us) and enjoy your life or work one something awesome funny in your spare time. That little extra (netto) money isn't worth a 40h week. ciao, tom -- Thomas R. "TomK32" Koll just a geek trying to change the world http://ananasblau.com || http://photostre.am || http://photolog.at
Displaimer: I'm an immigrant myself, came from Moscow four years ago, so expect a bit of rant below.
You are already assimilated: Complaining on a high level is so austrian ;-)
I can go as low level as... Wait, what?
My advise, and the way I'm living, go for a four-day-week or even tree days, be happy with little less money (2000-2400 should still be doable for us) and enjoy your life or work one something awesome funny in your spare time. That little extra (netto) money isn't worth a 40h week.
Glad you have mentioned that. Look how gently you have been pushed one step closer to the Karlsplatz passage folks. "Tomas, there's no need to work hard, you won't get any reward anyway". That's sooooo good for you in particular and local economy in general, you know.
It reminds me of a very similar discussion on the London's Ruby User Group list and James pretty much got it right: http://lists.lrug.org/htdig.cgi/chat-lrug.org/2008-March/002092.html
It's great to have the choice whether you want to earn more or not. This choice exists in London: you may be Ruby-hip with 35K and Java-enterprisy-uncool with 70K. You may even be sold-my-sold-to-top-tier-hedge-fund with 90K. In Vienna a combination of tax law and job market effectively made this choice for you. Basically what you say only confirms my point: the salaries ARE low and employed professional cannot do anything about it. Cheers, Sergey
Am 02.08.2010 um 13:52 schrieb Sergey V. Mikhanov:
Glad you have mentioned that. Look how gently you have been pushed one step closer to the Karlsplatz passage folks. "Tomas, there's no need to work hard, you won't get any reward anyway". That's sooooo good for you in particular and local economy in general, you know.
No, the point was: If you work 5 days for €3500/month brutto you make 2.138,49 netto but if you work only 4 days for €2800 brutto you make 1.812,82 netto, only 300 netto less, that's 16% and 20% less. Fact is: We are working in an industry where we can make a lot money but also reach the top barrier tax-wise and pay an aweful lot of taxes for that. This is not me being lazy, but me being smart enough that my work on a Friday is (netto) worth less than it's on the first days of the week. And for god's sake, don't rant about me being bad to the local economy, because if more (high paid) ppl would work work there would be more jobs and less unemployment. And finally, as already mentioned: I'm making the best of my free time by working on my own project which turn into profit one way or the other. If my projects don't make profit money-wise then I've still done and learned something new, something that will put me ahead of you who only does his job and doesn't broaden his skills. ciao, tom -- Thomas R. "TomK32" Koll just a geek trying to change the world http://ananasblau.com || http://photostre.am || http://photolog.at
Fact is: We are working in an industry where we can make a lot money but also reach the top barrier tax-wise and pay an aweful lot of taxes for that.
Thomas, do you seriously think that this is not what is called "discouraging you from working harder and earning more"? No, really, you want to start a debate on the meaning of this? Or maybe this disproves the very initial point about low wages? No, seriously. Sergey
.. blah blah.. i work in my spare time, so i get advantage over you.. Thomas, do you seriously think.. blah blah
dont feed the troll(s). please stop it. thanks -flo
Öffentliche Diskussionsliste (~50 Posts/Monat + 1 Flamewar/Monat)
This month we didn't had any, so I'm in the limit :)
ahja true.. ROUND 2: FIGHT! *argument* *counterargument* *godwins law strike* *f-word shitstorm* PROFANITY! player 1 wins. :* -flo
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Sergey V. Mikhanov -
Thomas R. Koll